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  Message 1 of 13  
21 Feb 14 02:12
wesley
xxxxxx@163.com
Join Date: 07 Nov 2012
Posts To This List: 344
Windows driver support for NVMe

Dear all, My question is if Windows 7 or later version does or will support NVMe devices? Such as Win7 does not support xHCI host, but Win8 does. Regards, Wesley
  Message 2 of 13  
21 Feb 14 02:30
ntdev member 44899
xxxxxx@cran.org.uk
Join Date:
Posts To This List: 288
Windows driver support for NVMe

On 2/21/2014 12:12 AM, xxxxx@163.com wrote: > My question is if Windows 7 or later version does or will support NVMe devices? > > Such as Win7 does not support xHCI host, but Win8 does. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express support was added in Windows 8.1 / Server 2012 R2. -- Bruce
  Message 3 of 13  
21 Feb 14 08:47
Jeff Glass
xxxxxx@gmail.com
Join Date: 05 Jan 2011
Posts To This List: 93
Windows driver support for NVMe

As Bruce pointed out Windows 8/Windows Server 2012R2 and later support it natively with an in-box driver. Microsoft also changed Storport to allow more than 254 outstanding I/O's to a specific LUN which most NVMe devices will require for maximum performance on small I/O's. I highly doubt Microsoft will port this driver back to Windows 7. It's just not the way they normally do things. The good news is that the NVM Express group, nvmeexpress.org, has an open source driver that supports the devices on older versions of Windows. I haven't been able to find a binary for download on their website, but if you pull their SVN tree, there is a WHQL'ed (64bit) driver package in their release directory. Jeff On 2/20/2014 11:12 PM, xxxxx@163.com wrote: > Dear all, > > My question is if Windows 7 or later version does or will support NVMe devices? > > Such as Win7 does not support xHCI host, but Win8 does. > > Regards, > Wesley > > --- <...excess quoted lines suppressed...>
  Message 4 of 13  
21 Feb 14 09:00
Don Burn
xxxxxx@windrvr.com
Join Date: 23 Feb 2011
Posts To This List: 1355
Windows driver support for NVMe

Be aware that while it WHQL'd (remember all you have to do is pass the tests once), it is more likely to crash. The folks who wrote this thing need to go back and learn about locking and synchronization, since they certainly missed it in the driver that is out there. I helped a client get the driver to the point where it could be shipped, but even now I would not call it a driver I would want on any system I or my clients own. Don Burn Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting Website: http://www.windrvr.com Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr -----Original Message----- From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Glass Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:47 AM To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List Subject: Re: [ntdev] Windows driver support for NVMe As Bruce pointed out Windows 8/Windows Server 2012R2 and later support it natively with an in-box driver. Microsoft also changed Storport to allow more than 254 outstanding I/O's to a specific LUN which most NVMe devices will require for maximum performance on small I/O's. I highly doubt Microsoft will port this driver back to Windows 7. It's just not the way they normally do things. The good news is that the NVM Express group, nvmeexpress.org, has an open source driver that supports the devices on older versions of Windows. I haven't been able to find a binary for download on their website, but if you pull their SVN tree, there is a WHQL'ed (64bit) driver package in their release directory. Jeff On 2/20/2014 11:12 PM, xxxxx@163.com wrote: > Dear all, > > My question is if Windows 7 or later version does or will support NVMe devices? > > Such as Win7 does not support xHCI host, but Win8 does. > > Regards, > Wesley > > --- > NTDEV is sponsored by OSR > > Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev <...excess quoted lines suppressed...> --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
  Message 5 of 13  
21 Feb 14 09:11
Jeff Glass
xxxxxx@gmail.com
Join Date: 05 Jan 2011
Posts To This List: 93
Windows driver support for NVMe

That's interesting. I have seen several hangs (followed by DPC timeout bluescreens) with MS's driver, but I've not seen any with the OFA driver. On 2/21/2014 5:59 AM, Don Burn wrote: > Be aware that while it WHQL'd (remember all you have to do is pass the tests > once), it is more likely to crash. The folks who wrote this thing need to > go back and learn about locking and synchronization, since they certainly > missed it in the driver that is out there. I helped a client get the driver > to the point where it could be shipped, but even now I would not call it a > driver I would want on any system I or my clients own. > > > Don Burn > Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting <...excess quoted lines suppressed...>
  Message 6 of 13  
21 Feb 14 09:21
Don Burn
xxxxxx@windrvr.com
Join Date: 23 Feb 2011
Posts To This List: 1355
Windows driver support for NVMe

The WHQL'd OFA driver has a huge number of unique crashes that I know of. It also has an amazing amount of dead code. It has a load balancing scheme that has nothing to do with the reality of how Windows runs on multiple processors. As I said it has a lot of problems with locking, including having lists that are access without locking by multiple processors. As a reference tool to see how to hit the hardware registers it has some validity, as a driver for an enterprise class system where NVME is expected to be used a lot, it does not even meet the classification of "a piece of shit" without a lot of work. Don Burn Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting Website: http://www.windrvr.com Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr -----Original Message----- From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Glass Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:11 AM To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List Subject: Re: [ntdev] Windows driver support for NVMe That's interesting. I have seen several hangs (followed by DPC timeout bluescreens) with MS's driver, but I've not seen any with the OFA driver. On 2/21/2014 5:59 AM, Don Burn wrote: > Be aware that while it WHQL'd (remember all you have to do is pass the > tests once), it is more likely to crash. The folks who wrote this > thing need to go back and learn about locking and synchronization, > since they certainly missed it in the driver that is out there. I > helped a client get the driver to the point where it could be shipped, > but even now I would not call it a driver I would want on any system I or my clients own. > > > Don Burn > Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting > Website: http://www.windrvr.com > Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr > > > > -----Original Message----- <...excess quoted lines suppressed...> directory. > > Jeff > > On 2/20/2014 11:12 PM, xxxxx@163.com wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> My question is if Windows 7 or later version does or will support >> NVMe > devices? >> Such as Win7 does not support xHCI host, but Win8 does. --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
  Message 7 of 13  
24 Feb 14 00:08
wesley
xxxxxx@163.com
Join Date: 07 Nov 2012
Posts To This List: 344
Windows driver support for NVMe

Thank you all. It seems that this topic change from have or not to which driver with high quality.
  Message 8 of 13  
24 Feb 14 10:13
Peter Viscarola (OSR)
xxxxxx@osr.com
Join Date:
Posts To This List: 5952
List Moderator
Windows driver support for NVMe

<quote> My question is if Windows 7 or later version does or will support NVMe devices? </quote> OK, to be clear: Windows 7 does not ship with a Microsoft-developed driver for NVMe devices. There are (or, rather, there will be) third party drivers for NVMe devices that support Windows 7. I would respectfully suggest that any concern or question about NVMe drivers is a touch premature at this point, and you should therefore be tolerant of... if not outright grateful for... the thread drift, given that there are no publicly released NVMe devices. For the record, I *am* a big fan of the technology. Of course, the last time I got excited about a piece of technology was those CD-ROMs the size of a US twenty-five cent coin. What WERE they called... Remember those? No? That's because nobody ever used them commercially. Peter OSR @OSRDrivers
  Message 9 of 13  
24 Feb 14 12:23
Peter Viscarola (OSR)
xxxxxx@osr.com
Join Date:
Posts To This List: 5952
List Moderator
Windows driver support for NVMe

<quote> the last time I got excited about a piece of technology was those CD-ROMs the size of a US twenty-five cent coin. What WERE they called... </quote> The name of this thing been haunting me all morning. The technology was called DataPlay. Picture here: http://images.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/_photos/dataplay.jpg I was sure they were going to make it big. And now I'm sure I'm the only one interested. Now THERE's some thread drift for you. Peter OSR @OSRDrivers
  Message 10 of 13  
24 Feb 14 12:56
Alex Grig
xxxxxx@broadcom.com
Join Date: 14 Apr 2008
Posts To This List: 3219
Windows driver support for NVMe

>The name of this thing been haunting me all morning. The technology was called DataPlay. I remember you hauling the USB micro 1G HDD with the DDK, on the driver security courses (held at MS campus). This DataPlay thing was too late. Flash was already taking off.
  Message 11 of 13  
24 Feb 14 13:04
Don Burn
xxxxxx@windrvr.com
Join Date: 23 Feb 2011
Posts To This List: 1355
Windows driver support for NVMe

I think NVME will do reasonably well in the market, which is one of the reasons I drifted the thread into the problems of the OFA driver. I know a number of firms that are planning on using the OFA driver, and unless they do a bunch of work NVME will get a bad reputation because of the quality of the drivers. Don Burn Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting Website: http://www.windrvr.com Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
  Message 12 of 13  
24 Feb 14 13:12
Jeff Glass
xxxxxx@gmail.com
Join Date: 05 Jan 2011
Posts To This List: 93
Windows driver support for NVMe

On 2/24/2014 9:23 AM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote: > <quote> > the last time I > got excited about a piece of technology was those CD-ROMs the size of a US > twenty-five cent coin. What WERE they called... > </quote> > > The name of this thing been haunting me all morning. The technology was called DataPlay. Picture here: > > http://images.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/_photos/dataplay.jpg > <...excess quoted lines suppressed...> I was thinking Mini-Disk which is something different than this. Back on topic though. The NVM Express/Open Fabrics driver *is* released. Don seems to have had trouble with it, but its worked fine for me. I know that the source is being used as the foundation for drivers that multiple manufacturers are planning to release with their products. That driver is pretty much the only game in town because everyone outside Microsoft needs to support OSes before Win8.1. The alternative is to write your own driver. NVMe isn't terribly complex, so it's not that bad of a job. However, a lot of work has gone into the OF driver, it seems silly to duplicate the effort. You can't ship some random driver without testing it with your hardware, so you're going to need to test a driver (either the OF driver or a home grown driver) either way. Even if you can target Win 8.1 and later, the Microsoft driver has a critical flaw. Microsoft decided to now allow NVM admin pass through commands for security reasons. That may be great for security, but it cripples the devices from an administrative functional capability. Upgrading firmware or setting up namespaces are out of the picture with Microsoft's driver. You can always ship a bootable Linux CD for users to use to administer their Windows hardware I guess. Jeff
  Message 13 of 13  
24 Feb 14 13:42
Don Burn
xxxxxx@windrvr.com
Join Date: 23 Feb 2011
Posts To This List: 1355
Windows driver support for NVMe

Jeff, My data comes from high cpu count / large memory / high stress testing, where the stock OFA driver would always crash in a few hours. Not sure how you are testing, but without the stress the large systems gave, things would run fine for days. This just shows the old argument of have a large number of CPU's and stressing a driver is the best way to find locking and multi-threading edge conditions. Of course with the OFA driver a good code review makes one ask did the authors know what locking is? Don Burn Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting Website: http://www.windrvr.com Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr -----Original Message----- From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Glass Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 1:12 PM To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List Subject: Re: [ntdev] Windows driver support for NVMe On 2/24/2014 9:23 AM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote: > <quote> > the last time I > got excited about a piece of technology was those CD-ROMs the size of > a US twenty-five cent coin. What WERE they called... > </quote> > > The name of this thing been haunting me all morning. The technology was called DataPlay. Picture here: > > http://images.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/_photos/dataplay.jpg > > I was sure they were going to make it big. And now I'm sure I'm the only one interested. > I was thinking Mini-Disk which is something different than this. Back on topic though. The NVM Express/Open Fabrics driver *is* released. Don seems to have had trouble with it, but its worked fine for me. I know that the source is being used as the foundation for drivers that multiple manufacturers are planning to release with their products. That driver is pretty much the only game in town because everyone outside Microsoft needs to support OSes before Win8.1. The alternative is to write your own driver. NVMe isn't terribly complex, so it's not that bad of a job. However, a lot of work has gone into the OF driver, it seems silly to duplicate the effort. You can't ship some random driver without testing it with your hardware, so you're going to need to test a driver (either the OF driver or a home grown driver) either way. Even if you can target Win 8.1 and later, the Microsoft driver has a critical flaw. Microsoft decided to now allow NVM admin pass through commands for security reasons. That may be great for security, but it cripples the devices from an administrative functional capability. Upgrading firmware or setting up namespaces are out of the picture with Microsoft's driver. You can always ship a bootable Linux CD for users to use to administer their Windows hardware I guess. Jeff --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list at: http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev OSR is HIRING!! See http://www.osr.com/careers For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit: http://www.osr.com/seminars To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
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