Driver Developer Conference

We REALLY think it’s time that Microsoft held a Driver Developer Conference.

What do YOU think?

PLEASE TAKE 30 SECONDS TO VOTE in our (anonymous) 6 question online poll:

https:</https:>

You can read a bit more about what we’re thinking on this topic here:

https:</https:>

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

We REALLY think it’s time that Microsoft held a Driver Developer Conference.

What do YOU think?

There are two fundamentally incompatible needs at work here.

Twenty years ago, I went to Driver Developer Conferences because there
was so much I didn’t know.  I needed to learn basics.  There’s still a
need for that, and I strongly suspect that’s what those East Asian DDCs
were all about, but those are sessions that I would not attend today.

Today, I basically want to know what has changed.  It seems like a
trivial point, but I would be happy if I could find a huge “Release
Notes” document for each release of Windows and each release of the WDK
that enumerated what has changed since the last release.  In the 20th
Century, release notes were shipped with the Windows CD.  Today, I
cannot find such a thing.  You can go to the Linux kernel web sites and
find a document that summarizes every change in every release of the
kernel.  That’s just incredibly useful.


Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

I certainly agree.

But I think the complexity is beyond the level of “release notes” – I mean, what will they put in the Release Notes about Universal Drivers that’ll get the point across (something akin to what I wrote in this issue of The NT Insider on this topic)? How would they POSSIBLY communicate the level of architectural changes we’ve seen in the OS of interest to driver devs since Windows 8 in Release Notes? PoFx, for example. Or, how drivers can get resources from multiple separate controllers (none of which may be the bus driver that enumerated them). Or all the stuff about connected/modern standby.

Then there’s the “inside info” shit that you care about. That SDV stopped catching many errors in VS 2015, but there’s a new analysis engine that’s active in RS3. THAT sort of thing.

Yeah… I just don’t feel like release notes would could come close to doing it. Even assuming I can “read the source.”

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

Having gone to all the Driver Developer Conferences and around 10 WinHEC’s a
lot of the time I ended up going to a presentation since it was in an area
of interest. What made it good was in most cases the presenter had some
nugget of information I missed (from the examples and the docs), or had a
different approach to developing/coding a driver for some case that I had
not thought of. To me these small items made the trip worthwhile. Of
course also being able to interact with other driver dev’s and the folks
from Redmond was important on the conference.

I don’t know about others, but about half my queries are from firms that are
looking to withdraw software or in some cases software and hardware
development from their current outsourced approach in Asia. I’m fine with
developing a driver for the older platforms, but these folks want the full
breath from Windows 7 to a universal driver, and I know I could use some
more data.

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 3:15 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] Driver Developer Conference



I certainly agree.

But I think the complexity is beyond the level of “release notes” – I mean,
what will they put in the Release Notes about Universal Drivers that’ll get
the point across (something akin to what I wrote in this issue of The NT
Insider on this topic)? How would they POSSIBLY communicate the level of
architectural changes we’ve seen in the OS of interest to driver devs since
Windows 8 in Release Notes? PoFx, for example. Or, how drivers can get
resources from multiple separate controllers (none of which may be the bus
driver that enumerated them). Or all the stuff about connected/modern
standby.

Then there’s the “inside info” shit that you care about. That SDV stopped
catching many errors in VS 2015, but there’s a new analysis engine that’s
active in RS3. THAT sort of thing.

Yeah… I just don’t feel like release notes would could come close to doing
it. Even assuming I can “read the source.”

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at:
http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
drivers!
Details at http:

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http:</http:></http:></http:>

> What made it good was in most cases the presenter had some

nugget of information I missed (from the examples and the docs), or had a
different approach to developing/coding a driver for some case that I had
not thought of.

I am trying to develop kernel mode software for Windows, but lots of
the information I need is “hidden.” It seems like some users here got
their start by talking to other developers. I also tried looking for
release notes and never found any.

The one problem I have with such conferences is they serve as gates to
information. In some cases what was discussed never gets put up
anywhere else. It is unlikely I would ever be able to attend a
conference; companies typically avoid the Midwest and I can not afford
travel.

Cheers,
R0b0t1

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 2:25 PM, xxxxx@windrvr.com wrote:
> Having gone to all the Driver Developer Conferences and around 10 WinHEC’s a
> lot of the time I ended up going to a presentation since it was in an area
> of interest. What made it good was in most cases the presenter had some
> nugget of information I missed (from the examples and the docs), or had a
> different approach to developing/coding a driver for some case that I had
> not thought of. To me these small items made the trip worthwhile. Of
> course also being able to interact with other driver dev’s and the folks
> from Redmond was important on the conference.
>
> I don’t know about others, but about half my queries are from firms that are
> looking to withdraw software or in some cases software and hardware
> development from their current outsourced approach in Asia. I’m fine with
> developing a driver for the older platforms, but these folks want the full
> breath from Windows 7 to a universal driver, and I know I could use some
> more data.
>
>
> Don Burn
> Windows Driver Consulting
> Website: http://www.windrvr.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@osr.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 3:15 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] Driver Developer Conference
>
>


>
> I certainly agree.
>
> But I think the complexity is beyond the level of “release notes” – I mean,
> what will they put in the Release Notes about Universal Drivers that’ll get
> the point across (something akin to what I wrote in this issue of The NT
> Insider on this topic)? How would they POSSIBLY communicate the level of
> architectural changes we’ve seen in the OS of interest to driver devs since
> Windows 8 in Release Notes? PoFx, for example. Or, how drivers can get
> resources from multiple separate controllers (none of which may be the bus
> driver that enumerated them). Or all the stuff about connected/modern
> standby.
>
> Then there’s the “inside info” shit that you care about. That SDV stopped
> catching many errors in VS 2015, but there’s a new analysis engine that’s
> active in RS3. THAT sort of thing.
>
> Yeah… I just don’t feel like release notes would could come close to doing
> it. Even assuming I can “read the source.”
>
> Peter
> OSR
> @OSRDrivers
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at:
> http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
> drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:>

Actually, Microsoft did put the slides up for everyone. Also, there was a decent amount of discussion of things on this list when something new came out, along with the NT Insider having articles.

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 3:34 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Driver Developer Conference

> What made it good was in most cases the presenter had some nugget of
> information I missed (from the examples and the docs), or had a
> different approach to developing/coding a driver for some case that I
> had not thought of.

I am trying to develop kernel mode software for Windows, but lots of the information I need is “hidden.” It seems like some users here got their start by talking to other developers. I also tried looking for release notes and never found any.

The one problem I have with such conferences is they serve as gates to information. In some cases what was discussed never gets put up anywhere else. It is unlikely I would ever be able to attend a conference; companies typically avoid the Midwest and I can not afford travel.

Cheers,
R0b0t1

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 2:25 PM, xxxxx@windrvr.com wrote:
> Having gone to all the Driver Developer Conferences and around 10
> WinHEC’s a lot of the time I ended up going to a presentation since it
> was in an area of interest. What made it good was in most cases the
> presenter had some nugget of information I missed (from the examples
> and the docs), or had a different approach to developing/coding a driver for some case that I had
> not thought of. To me these small items made the trip worthwhile. Of
> course also being able to interact with other driver dev’s and the
> folks from Redmond was important on the conference.
>
> I don’t know about others, but about half my queries are from firms
> that are looking to withdraw software or in some cases software and hardware
> development from their current outsourced approach in Asia. I’m fine with
> developing a driver for the older platforms, but these folks want the
> full breath from Windows 7 to a universal driver, and I know I could
> use some more data.
>
>
> Don Burn
> Windows Driver Consulting
> Website: http://www.windrvr.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
> [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
> xxxxx@osr.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 3:15 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: RE:[ntdev] Driver Developer Conference
>
>


>
> I certainly agree.
>
> But I think the complexity is beyond the level of “release notes” – I
> mean, what will they put in the Release Notes about Universal Drivers
> that’ll get the point across (something akin to what I wrote in this
> issue of The NT Insider on this topic)? How would they POSSIBLY
> communicate the level of architectural changes we’ve seen in the OS of
> interest to driver devs since Windows 8 in Release Notes? PoFx, for
> example. Or, how drivers can get resources from multiple separate
> controllers (none of which may be the bus driver that enumerated
> them). Or all the stuff about connected/modern standby.
>
> Then there’s the “inside info” shit that you care about. That SDV
> stopped catching many errors in VS 2015, but there’s a new analysis
> engine that’s active in RS3. THAT sort of thing.
>
> Yeah… I just don’t feel like release notes would could come close to
> doing it. Even assuming I can “read the source.”
>
> Peter
> OSR
> @OSRDrivers
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at:
> http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at:
> http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http:


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
Details at http:

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:>

The slides (and videos) of the presentations from AT LEAST the past two WinHECs are available online.

That your company won’t pay for you to travel to (let’s just say Seattle) to WinHEC is pretty sad. The airfare is about $200 from Chicago to SEA. There are hotels that *I* would stay in (not PREFER to stay in, mind you) that run about $100/night. So, for the TRAVEL we’re talking pretty short money… certainly less than $1K. I suspect the cost of actually attending the conference would be higher than that, sadly.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

xxxxx@windrvr.com wrote:

…I’m fine with
developing a driver for the older platforms, but these folks want the full
breath from Windows 7 to a universal driver, and I know I could use some
more data.

That’s interesting; I have never had a single client ask me about
universal driver support.


Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

We?ve had several misguided requests, where the client referred to Google to write their requirements and ?Universal? sounded like something good.

We?ve had one, genuine, proper, request to make a driver universal. It as for an SMB device that legitimately can appear on tablets, phones, IoT devices or laptops. It?s a rare thing, though.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

To you an Don:

I will go look for those. I was more referring to the unpresented
material, and being able to talk to people in the field.

For the work I am trying to do I am not associated with a company.

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 3:01 PM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:
> The slides (and videos) of the presentations from AT LEAST the past two WinHECs are available online.
>
> That your company won’t pay for you to travel to (let’s just say Seattle) to WinHEC is pretty sad. The airfare is about $200 from Chicago to SEA. There are hotels that I would stay in (not PREFER to stay in, mind you) that run about $100/night. So, for the TRAVEL we’re talking pretty short money… certainly less than $1K. I suspect the cost of actually attending the conference would be higher than that, sadly.
>
> Peter
> OSR
> @OSRDrivers
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>

A lot of my clients are doing industrial like things, for example laser marking, stress testing, various digital controls, etc. Most of them are thinking along the lines of moving their platform from a full PC, to an IOT type device. They aren’t sure they are going there, but that is why they ask about universal.

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@probo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 5:00 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: Re: [ntdev] Driver Developer Conference

xxxxx@windrvr.com wrote:
> …I’m fine with
> developing a driver for the older platforms, but these folks want the
> full breath from Windows 7 to a universal driver, and I know I could
> use some more data.

That’s interesting; I have never had a single client ask me about universal driver support.


Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
Details at http:

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>

Conferences are fine but I was wondering whats the future of painstakingly
learning such a complex thing when world is moving very fast to the mobile
space and most of the things are now online web apps, I guess only some
hardware creators would need to write drivers in the future, I am just
guessing I don’t know how much business the driver development consulting
companies right now have? And has the business also started seeing a dip?
Or it is sure to see one!?

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:27 AM, xxxxx@windrvr.com
wrote:

> A lot of my clients are doing industrial like things, for example laser
> marking, stress testing, various digital controls, etc. Most of them are
> thinking along the lines of moving their platform from a full PC, to an IOT
> type device. They aren’t sure they are going there, but that is why they
> ask about universal.
>
>
> Don Burn
> Windows Driver Consulting
> Website: http://www.windrvr.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:bounce-639444-122747@
> lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@probo.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 5:00 PM
> To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
> Subject: Re: [ntdev] Driver Developer Conference
>
> xxxxx@windrvr.com wrote:
> > …I’m fine with
> > developing a driver for the older platforms, but these folks want the
> > full breath from Windows 7 to a universal driver, and I know I could
> > use some more data.
>
> That’s interesting; I have never had a single client ask me about
> universal driver support.
>
> –
> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:> showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:> showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
></http:></http:></http:></http:>

Ya that is my question as well.

If someone can throw some light.

what will be future of windows device drivers like file system filters and network filtering along with Win32.Will it remain relevant for say next 10 years.Is new software being created using these technologies.

My concern is:

–> World moving to mobile space
–> Desktop and server world also seeing microsoft share being taken by mac/linux

I don’t think anyone can say for sure on this issue. I do know that the
same questions you asked were being asked 10 years ago. I can also say,
that I’ve dealt with a fair number of startups that developed a driver for
Linux only to have their venture capitalist backers say “but you need to
support Windows”.

I think a lot of this depends on where Microsoft goes with Windows.

I do a lot of weird devices that don’t fit any normal device class, for me
the question is how will Windows evolve? I have clients who absolutely will
not use Windows 10, because the release cycle means they find an expensive
failure in their product with every Win10 release (since something changed
in Windows). By expensive I mean situations where parts costing $50,000 to
$250,000 a piece are wasted with the new release, and if they are lucky only
one!

I have clients that reject the universal driver model, because they need a
separate device class. The example above was told by Microsoft that they
should just make their device a “printer”. Can you imagine the costs if a
secretary choose the wrong selection in a print dialog and spewed out a few
dozen $250,000 parts badly, while trying to print a letter? The Microsoft
“experts” did not get it!

So to me the question can’t be answered since we don’t know what Redmond is
thinking. This is another reason for a conference, 15 years ago Microsoft
really interacted with the developer base. They would tell us where they
planned to go, and we explained problems we had. Not saying things were
perfect, but at least there was good interaction, something that best
happens face to face.

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
[mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of
xxxxx@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 7:43 AM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Subject: RE:[ntdev] Driver Developer Conference

Ya that is my question as well.

If someone can throw some light.

what will be future of windows device drivers like file system filters and
network filtering along with Win32.Will it remain relevant for say next 10
years.Is new software being created using these technologies.

My concern is:

–> World moving to mobile space
–> Desktop and server world also seeing microsoft share being taken by
mac/linux


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at:
http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software
drivers!
Details at http:

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
http:</http:></http:></http:>

I’ll venture they’re not moving from a PC to IoT Core. In that case, they’ll be moving to IoT Enterprise, which is the “desktop” driver model.

So… let’s see: Yes, there is new software, and lots of it, being created using these technologies.

And I will personally guarantee you that Windows will remain “relevant” for the next 10 years. There’s just too much corporate line-of-business use, too much inertia in the installed base, for Windows to disappear in that time-frame. Most Corporate systems are still Windows. Most big industrial control systems are based on Windows. Most medical systems are based on Windows.

So, yeah… There’ll be lots of drivers written for new devices, lots of file system filters, lots of “stuff” done on Windows in the next 10 years.

But would I *completely and exclusively* bet on Windows, the way I did in, say 1999? No, no way. For proof, see: https:</https:>

The *real* question (and what I think you’re actually asking) is “Will Windows remain a vital, evolving, developing force in computing with a growing user base for the next 10 years? And if not… what is?”

And, that, sir is the multi-billion dollar question. If you could answer it, you’d stand the chance to become very wealthy indeed.

This times 100.

The fact that the Universal INF model does not allow ClassInstall32 sections is a BIG fucking problem. I can’t BELIEVE our MSFT friends do not see this. I *get* that they want “declarative” INF files. But there’s no reason that having a ClassInstall32 section that INCLUDES the Class GUID can’t be “declarative.”

What annoys me about these little things is that they are PRECISELY the types of problems that close interaction with the third party driver development community would avoid. If they had a conference and discussed this plan, we would have been able to give them feedback that not allowing custom device classes was a VERY bad idea.

Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers

Maybe this should be billed as The Last Driver Dev Con Ever.

Then five years later we can have another one.

Mark Roddy

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, xxxxx@osr.com wrote:

>


>
> I’ll venture they’re not moving from a PC to IoT Core. In that case,
> they’ll be moving to IoT Enterprise, which is the “desktop” driver model.
>
>


>
> So… let’s see: Yes, there is new software, and lots of it, being
> created using these technologies.
>
> And I will personally guarantee you that Windows will remain “relevant”
> for the next 10 years. There’s just too much corporate line-of-business
> use, too much inertia in the installed base, for Windows to disappear in
> that time-frame. Most Corporate systems are still Windows. Most big
> industrial control systems are based on Windows. Most medical systems are
> based on Windows.
>
> So, yeah… There’ll be lots of drivers written for new devices, lots of
> file system filters, lots of “stuff” done on Windows in the next 10 years.
>
> But would I completely and exclusively bet on Windows, the way I did in,
> say 1999? No, no way. For proof, see: https:</https:>
>
> The real question (and what I think you’re actually asking) is “Will
> Windows remain a vital, evolving, developing force in computing with a
> growing user base for the next 10 years? And if not… what is?”
>
> And, that, sir is the multi-billion dollar question. If you could answer
> it, you’d stand the chance to become very wealthy indeed.
>
>
>


>
> This times 100.
>
> The fact that the Universal INF model does not allow ClassInstall32
> sections is a BIG fucking problem. I can’t BELIEVE our MSFT friends do not
> see this. I get that they want “declarative” INF files. But there’s no
> reason that having a ClassInstall32 section that INCLUDES the Class GUID
> can’t be “declarative.”
>
> What annoys me about these little things is that they are PRECISELY the
> types of problems that close interaction with the third party driver
> development community would avoid. If they had a conference and discussed
> this plan, we would have been able to give them feedback that not allowing
> custom device classes was a VERY bad idea.
>
> Peter
> OSR
> @OSRDrivers
>
>
> —
> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
> Visit the list online at: http:> showlists.cfm?list=ntdev>
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
> software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
></http:></http:>

Well, the truth is also that I have never seen any OS as robust as windows!
Certainly there maybe problems but for normal end users or admins I think
that windows is best and it’s really hard to beat it !
This is true for desktop but for mobile it made entry a bit too late!

On Oct 6, 2017 8:31 PM, “xxxxx@gmail.com
wrote:

> Maybe this should be billed as The Last Driver Dev Con Ever.
>
> Then five years later we can have another one.
>
> Mark Roddy
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 9:47 AM, xxxxx@osr.com
> wrote:
>
>>


>>
>> I’ll venture they’re not moving from a PC to IoT Core. In that case,
>> they’ll be moving to IoT Enterprise, which is the “desktop” driver model.
>>
>>


>>
>> So… let’s see: Yes, there is new software, and lots of it, being
>> created using these technologies.
>>
>> And I will personally guarantee you that Windows will remain “relevant”
>> for the next 10 years. There’s just too much corporate line-of-business
>> use, too much inertia in the installed base, for Windows to disappear in
>> that time-frame. Most Corporate systems are still Windows. Most big
>> industrial control systems are based on Windows. Most medical systems are
>> based on Windows.
>>
>> So, yeah… There’ll be lots of drivers written for new devices, lots of
>> file system filters, lots of “stuff” done on Windows in the next 10 years.
>>
>> But would I completely and exclusively bet on Windows, the way I did
>> in, say 1999? No, no way. For proof, see: <
>> https://www.osr.com/fesf-linux/&gt;
>>
>> The real question (and what I think you’re actually asking) is “Will
>> Windows remain a vital, evolving, developing force in computing with a
>> growing user base for the next 10 years? And if not… what is?”
>>
>> And, that, sir is the multi-billion dollar question. If you could answer
>> it, you’d stand the chance to become very wealthy indeed.
>>
>>
>>


>>
>> This times 100.
>>
>> The fact that the Universal INF model does not allow ClassInstall32
>> sections is a BIG fucking problem. I can’t BELIEVE our MSFT friends do not
>> see this. I get that they want “declarative” INF files. But there’s no
>> reason that having a ClassInstall32 section that INCLUDES the Class GUID
>> can’t be “declarative.”
>>
>> What annoys me about these little things is that they are PRECISELY the
>> types of problems that close interaction with the third party driver
>> development community would avoid. If they had a conference and discussed
>> this plan, we would have been able to give them feedback that not allowing
>> custom device classes was a VERY bad idea.
>>
>> Peter
>> OSR
>> @OSRDrivers
>>
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> Visit the list online at: http:>> lists.cfm?list=ntdev>
>>
>> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and
>> software drivers!
>> Details at http:
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <
>> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer&gt;
>>
>
> — NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list online at: MONTHLY seminars
> on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
> Details at To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at</http:></http:>

" Well, the truth is also that I have never seen any OS as robust as windows! "

That is a sad commentary on the industry. Windows and Linux both are pretty good operating systems, but a large number of the mini-computer systems and a fair number of Unix systems could beat them on reliability. That does not even consider, the fault tolerant computer firms like Tandem, Stratus and Sequoia (I and Mark Roddy both worked for Sequoia) who measured up time in years.

My favorite situation was about 10 years ago, when I got a call asking if I remember how to reboot a Sequoia computer. It turns out a customer of Sequoia installed a system in 1990, and it had not gone down in over 15 years. The firm lost their lease and needed help shutting down and rebooting the computer!

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com

That sounds very much like VMS and VAXClusters. Even major OS upgrades could be done without every completely shutting down the system. The nodes in the cluster could be separated by many miles and provide full fault-tolerant failover capabilities.

Windows and Linux still don’t even come close to this level of fault tolerance. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve developed drivers and applications for all three and like (and hate) all three.

As for the relevance of MS Windows in 10 years, who knows? Microslop could decide to create an all new OS and try to force people to move to it. Some say Windows 10 was exactly that with it’s forced update policy. Anyone who thinks Windows won’t abandon a platform should just look to Windows CE/Windows Embedded Compact. People who used to make a living as a consultant for WinCE/WEC are all horrified to see Microsoft completely abandon that platform in favor of the “Unified Driver Model” which is completely inappropriate for the Embedded/RealTime world. They basically gave away that market to the much mode configurable and lighter-weight Linux for embedded work.

I finally gave up and went to work for Arm.

Greg

xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote:

From: “xxxxx@windrvr.com
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Driver Developer Conference
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:20:43 -0400

" Well, the truth is also that I have never seen any OS as robust as windows! "

That is a sad commentary on the industry. Windows and Linux both are pretty good operating systems, but a large number of the mini-computer systems and a fair number of Unix systems could beat them on reliability. That does not even consider, the fault tolerant computer firms like Tandem, Stratus and Sequoia (I and Mark Roddy both worked for Sequoia) who measured up time in years.

My favorite situation was about 10 years ago, when I got a call asking if I remember how to reboot a Sequoia computer. It turns out a customer of Sequoia installed a system in 1990, and it had not gone down in over 15 years. The firm lost their lease and needed help shutting down and rebooting the computer!

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
Details at http:

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>

Actually, VAXClusters were a lot less robust than a full fault tolerant system. I remember a couple of times the DEC sales guy’s thought they could bid for contracts that the FT firms were going for, and then complained that no one could meet the requirements. Most of the time all the FT firms could.

Unfortunately, Microsoft and others believed the cluster claims of reliability, while clusters are good, they are not at the same level of reliability.

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@pdq.net
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 12:59 PM
To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
Cc: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Driver Developer Conference

That sounds very much like VMS and VAXClusters. Even major OS upgrades could be done without every completely shutting down the system. The nodes in the cluster could be separated by many miles and provide full fault-tolerant failover capabilities.

Windows and Linux still don’t even come close to this level of fault tolerance. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve developed drivers and applications for all three and like (and hate) all three.

As for the relevance of MS Windows in 10 years, who knows? Microslop could decide to create an all new OS and try to force people to move to it. Some say Windows 10 was exactly that with it’s forced update policy. Anyone who thinks Windows won’t abandon a platform should just look to Windows CE/Windows Embedded Compact. People who used to make a living as a consultant for WinCE/WEC are all horrified to see Microsoft completely abandon that platform in favor of the “Unified Driver Model” which is completely inappropriate for the Embedded/RealTime world. They basically gave away that market to the much mode configurable and lighter-weight Linux for embedded work.

I finally gave up and went to work for Arm.

Greg

xxxxx@lists.osr.com wrote:

From: “xxxxx@windrvr.com
To: “Windows System Software Devs Interest List”
Subject: RE: [ntdev] Driver Developer Conference
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 12:20:43 -0400

" Well, the truth is also that I have never seen any OS as robust as windows! "

That is a sad commentary on the industry. Windows and Linux both are pretty good operating systems, but a large number of the mini-computer systems and a fair number of Unix systems could beat them on reliability. That does not even consider, the fault tolerant computer firms like Tandem, Stratus and Sequoia (I and Mark Roddy both worked for Sequoia) who measured up time in years.

My favorite situation was about 10 years ago, when I got a call asking if I remember how to reboot a Sequoia computer. It turns out a customer of Sequoia installed a system in 1990, and it had not gone down in over 15 years. The firm lost their lease and needed help shutting down and rebooting the computer!

Don Burn
Windows Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
Details at http:

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:


NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

Visit the list online at: http:

MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
Details at http:

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:>