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  Message 1 of 12  
13 Mar 18 17:16
Emil Has
xxxxxx@hotmail.com
Join Date: 05 Dec 2011
Posts To This List: 56
How to disable resource rebalancing

Hi I test non commercial (only Lab) host platform with internal lab USB device (with specific USB driver) and win10 on test mode. Unfortunately , after my first write operation ( only first time after the boot), the specific USB device driver disappear from device manager and back after few seconds. I'm pretty sure, it is because of resource re-balancing. because, on another lab host, disabling some PCI devices and USB devices , solves the issue, but on this host still happens. Notes: 1. I can't change the driver (don;t have sources) 2. re-balancing happens only once, after boot and then never again until next boot Is there any way to disable the re-balancing for just this abnormal test ? Or any ideas ? Thank you
  Message 2 of 12  
13 Mar 18 20:13
Doron Holan
xxxxxx@microsoft.com
Join Date: 08 Sep 2005
Posts To This List: 10238
How to disable resource rebalancing

A resource rebalance should not make the device disappear. Capture a usb etw log and see what is happening at the bus layer. Sounds like your device is not responding properly on the wire. Bent from my phone ________________________________ From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> on behalf of xxxxx@hotmail.com <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:16:25 PM To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List Subject: [ntdev] How to disable resource rebalancing Hi I test non commercial (only Lab) host platform with internal lab USB device (with specific USB driver) and win10 on test mode. Unfortunately , after my first write operation ( only first time after the boot), the specific USB device driver disappear from device manager and back after few seconds. I'm pretty sure, it is because of resource re-balancing. because, on another lab host, disabling some PCI devices and USB devices , solves the issue, but on this host still happens. Notes: 1. I can't change the driver (don;t have sources) 2. re-balancing happens only once, after boot and then never again until next boot Is there any way to disable the re-balancing for just this abnormal test ? Or any ideas ? Thank you --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list online at: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osronline.co m%2Fshowlists.cfm%3Flist%3Dntdev&data=04%7C01%7CDoron.Holan%40microsoft.com%7C004 798c255fa43e8171208d58927ab88%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636565 725848576845%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6 Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=wy6vHMXMIFOhlIpSE7m93l3WV4EWz%2Fb8c8g3C6LYWzE%3D&rese rved=0> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers! Details at <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osr.com%2Fse minars&data=04%7C01%7CDoron.Holan%40microsoft.com%7C004798c255fa43e8171208d58927a b88%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636565725848576845%7CUnknown%7CT WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdat a=ioQlRJivRDhd9ch0Amefy6KP04qCw9J3J9N5ofYLxfA%3D&reserved=0> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.osronline.co m%2Fpage.cfm%3Fname%3DListServer&data=04%7C01%7CDoron.Holan%40microsoft.com%7C004 798c255fa43e8171208d58927ab88%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636565 725848576845%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6 Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&sdata=mMKTJc5p96RZ44W5TEnpnLxrLYBJk%2B0l0A6QVEguuvM%3D&rese rved=0> --
  Message 3 of 12  
14 Mar 18 01:17
Tim Roberts
xxxxxx@probo.com
Join Date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts To This List: 12028
How to disable resource rebalancing

On Mar 13, 2018, at 2:16 PM, xxxxx@hotmail.com <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> wrote: > > I test non commercial (only Lab) host platform with internal lab USB device (with specific USB driver) and win10 on test mode. > Unfortunately , after my first write operation ( only first time after the boot), the specific USB device driver disappear from device manager and back after few seconds. > I'm pretty sure, it is because of resource re-balancing. USB devices don't need rebalancing. > because, on another lab host, disabling some PCI devices and USB devices , solves the issue, but on this host still happens. How many USB devices do you have? There is an extremely serious and little-known limitation on Intel host controllers that limits them to no more than 63 configured endpoints on the entire bus, and that includes endpoint 0 for all of the devices and hubs. (I'm not sure how they get away with that, since it violates the USB spec.) In a "rich" environment, it's not difficult to bump up against that ceiling. What kind of a device is it? Does your write operation trigger a bunch of activity? Is it possible you are violating the port's power supply? I have certainly seen that cause devices to drop out. Are you using high-quality USB cables? I've seen cables with slightly out-of-spec connectors cause this kind of headache. ??? Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
  Message 4 of 12  
14 Mar 18 04:30
Emil Has
xxxxxx@hotmail.com
Join Date: 05 Dec 2011
Posts To This List: 56
How to disable resource rebalancing

thanks, in fact my first thinking was that the device isn't react properly to something, but if so, why this USB device is working well on other systems / platforms with all same configuration and devices? The USB device just opening a thunderbolt port such that thunderbolt device that already connected to this port gets link with the platform . - at this moment the usb device disappear from the device manager and back again in few seconds. Is this possible that once thunderbolt device make link , it somehow affect on USB device?
  Message 5 of 12  
14 Mar 18 10:40
Peter Viscarola
xxxxxx@osr.com
Join Date:
Posts To This List: 6264
List Moderator
How to disable resource rebalancing

<quote> There is an extremely serious and little-known limitation on Intel host controllers that limits them to no more than 63 configured endpoints on the entire bus, and that includes endpoint 0 for all of the devices and hubs. </quote> WHAT!? Seriously? Citation, please? I'm not QUESTIONING this revelation... rather, I'm *shocked* to hear this, AND having just spent a few days with a client that has NINETY something USB devices on their system, this might be relevant to their "issues"... So I want to follow-up on this and understand the specifics of the limitation. Thanks! Peter OSR @OSRDrivers
  Message 6 of 12  
14 Mar 18 12:44
Tim Roberts
xxxxxx@probo.com
Join Date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts To This List: 12028
How to disable resource rebalancing

xxxxx@osr.com wrote: > <quote> > There is an extremely serious and > little-known limitation on Intel host controllers that limits them to no more > than 63 configured endpoints on the entire bus, and that includes endpoint 0 for > all of the devices and hubs. > </quote> > > WHAT!? Seriously? Citation, please? > > I'm not QUESTIONING this revelation... rather, I'm *shocked* to hear this, AND having just spent a few days with a client that has NINETY something USB devices on their system, this might be relevant to their "issues"... So I want to follow-up on this and understand the specifics of the limitation. I, also, was shocked when I actually encountered this in the real world, on a manufacturing test I was writing.  When Intel designed their EHCI controllers a hundred years ago, they required that the BIOS allocate a chunk of DOS memory for communicating between BIOS services and operating system services.  That chunk of DOS memory has 4kB of state info per endpoint, and at a fixed size of 512kB, allowed for 128 endpoints.  It was believed that would be plenty. When they created their XHCI controllers, that "backwards compatibility" bugaboo required that the memory chunk remain the same size, but now each endpoint requires 8kB, meaning they can only hold 64.  It IS possible to encounter this limitation in real world systems. This is why Intel motherboards usually include at least two XHCI controllers. https://embedded.communities.intel.com/thread/7500 -- Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
  Message 7 of 12  
14 Mar 18 13:09
Tim Roberts
xxxxxx@probo.com
Join Date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts To This List: 12028
How to disable resource rebalancing

xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote: > in fact my first thinking was that the device isn't react properly to something, but if so, why this USB device is working well on other systems / platforms with all same configuration and devices? Electrical and timing problems can be tricky beasts, even on supposedly identical hardware.  For example, say that one of your systems is at the very edge of the voltage tolerances for the USB Vbus signal, and your activity causes it to draw too much current. > The USB device just opening a thunderbolt port such that thunderbolt device that already connected to this port gets link with the platform . - at this moment the usb device disappear from the device manager and back again in few seconds. > Is this possible that once thunderbolt device make link , it somehow affect on USB device? How are you "opening" the Thunderbolt port?  Could it be pulling current from USB to do that?  Thunderbolt runs at pretty high speed, so board layout is critical.  Have you taken steps to ensure you don't have any capacitive coupling between the Thunderbolt lines and the USB lines? -- Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
  Message 8 of 12  
14 Mar 18 14:21
Peter Viscarola
xxxxxx@osr.com
Join Date:
Posts To This List: 6264
List Moderator
How to disable resource rebalancing

/aside >https://embedded.communities.intel.com/thread/7500 That is THE scariest thread I think that I've ever read. The inanity runs *really* deep. Not only do the Intel people *constantly* confuse/conflate the concepts of devices and endpoints, but the thread ends with "this information needs a non-disclosure agreement"... An NDA. To be able to tell you WTF is going on... and that some Intel USB controllers only apparently support 64 endpoints each, or 128 endpoints, or... something? I guess this isn't a Big Deal because most computer have just a few USB devices. But I'm shocked... shocked. Shit. I have no idea what to tell my customer (who has happily had 91 USB devices working on a Windows XP system for ages). They were trying to tell me that they had trouble buying systems, and had to order some VERY SPECIFIC hardware for their system to work properly... I assumed they were insane. Now... Maybe not so much. THANK YOU Mr. Roberts. Peter OSR @OSRDrivers Apologies to the OP for thread drift -- If it can happen in the thread *I* started, it can happen in your thread too... I guess ;-)
  Message 9 of 12  
19 Mar 18 10:11
Emil Has
xxxxxx@hotmail.com
Join Date: 05 Dec 2011
Posts To This List: 56
How to disable resource rebalancing

Tim, You speak about a long time ago . today there's only XHCI controller. even two controllers. I think it is still 128, but I'll check it, soon... Regarding my question , can you help please guys ? I do not understand why I have the USB driver disappear then back few sec later as a react to thunderbolt port activation ? there are no too much devices on the system , mouse , keyboard , external hub to which my device connected ... Any suggestion where and how to start investigate this issue in order to get some info ?
  Message 10 of 12  
19 Mar 18 10:38
Alexander Krol
xxxxxx@Kodak.com
Join Date: 12 Nov 2006
Posts To This List: 50
How to disable resource rebalancing

As others already told you - it seems you have a _hardware_ problem, not a driver-related one. So - connect USB bus analyzer to understand what is happening there. Regards, Alex Krol -----Original Message----- From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 4:11 PM To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List <xxxxx@lists.osr.com> Subject: RE:[ntdev] How to disable resource rebalancing CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Kodak. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Tim, You speak about a long time ago . today there's only XHCI controller. even two controllers. I think it is still 128, but I'll check it, soon... Regarding my question , can you help please guys ? I do not understand why I have the USB driver disappear then back few sec later as a react to thunderbolt port activation ? there are no too much devices on the system , mouse , keyboard , external hub to which my device connected ... Any suggestion where and how to start investigate this issue in order to get some info ? --- NTDEV is sponsored by OSR Visit the list online at: <http://www.osronline.com/showlists.cfm?list=ntdev> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers! Details at <http://www.osr.com/seminars> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at <http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer>
  Message 11 of 12  
19 Mar 18 11:33
Peter Viscarola
xxxxxx@osr.com
Join Date:
Posts To This List: 6264
List Moderator
How to disable resource rebalancing

>thunderbolt port activation Hmmmm... Thunderbolt support is, ah, complicated and often problematic. Just google "Windows Thunderbolt" and read what comes up. If you already know this, and your job is to do what you can to smooth out these differences, you likely have a complex task ahead of you. As Mr. Krol suggested, I would *start* with a USB Bus Analyzer. Peter OSR @OSRDrivers
  Message 12 of 12  
19 Mar 18 12:57
Tim Roberts
xxxxxx@probo.com
Join Date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts To This List: 12028
How to disable resource rebalancing

xxxxx@hotmail.com wrote: > You speak about a long time ago . > today there's only XHCI controller. even two controllers. > I think it is still 128, but I'll check it, soon... I encountered this problem in state-of-the-art motherboards in 2016.  It's not a long time ago.  But it's unlikely to be related to your problem.   > Regarding my question , can you help please guys ? > I do not understand why I have the USB driver disappear then back few sec later as a react to thunderbolt port activation ? > there are no too much devices on the system , mouse , keyboard , external hub to which my device connected ... > > Any suggestion where and how to start investigate this issue in order to get some info ? My first guess is voltage drop due to current draw.  Does the Thunderbolt get powered up using bus power? -- Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
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