I want to understand if there are advantages to using Windows 10 on driver development machines? Otherwise for my personal preferences, I find many attributes of Windows 10 a step backwards from Windows 7 like UAC, console, and more without any noticeable benefits.
Well, (supported) kernel mode debugging via Ethernet is one that stands out for me…
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 6, 2016, at 21:08, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
I want to understand if there are advantages to using Windows 10 on driver development machines? Otherwise for my personal preferences, I find many attributes of Windows 10 a step backwards from Windows 7 like UAC, console, and more without any noticeable benefits.
NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
Visit the list online at: http:
>
> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
> Details at http:
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>
Using the Ethernet transport in the debugger side works on Win 7, just not on the target side. I’m guessing USB 3 debugging does not work on Win 7, debugger or target, as Win 7 has no real USB 3 support, and just has some drivers that make USB 3 hardware look like really fast USB 2.
Jan
On 2/6/16, 6:35 PM, “xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of Wade Dawson” wrote:
>Well, (supported) kernel mode debugging via Ethernet is one that stands out for me…
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 6, 2016, at 21:08, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I want to understand if there are advantages to using Windows 10 on driver development machines? Otherwise for my personal preferences, I find many attributes of Windows 10 a step backwards from Windows 7 like UAC, console, and more without any noticeable benefits.
>>
>>
>> —
>> NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>>
>> Visit the list online at: http:
>>
>> MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
>> Details at http:
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list online at: http:
>
>MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
>Details at http:
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:></http:></http:></http:>
Let’s see, my experience is code analysis and SDV don’t work when you run VS 2015 on Win 7. They might work on Win 8.1 but it seems unlikely you would prefer Win 8.1 over Win 10. Not only does this prevent you from using some great tools to find bugs, you need the analysis logs from CA/SDV to feed to WHQL certification. I’m running VS 2015 on my corporate laptop, and I see a variety of compiler crashes, like some trivial syntax errors crash instead of making nice messages.
Can you clarify what you experience as the advantages of Win 7 over Win 10, as I can’t personally think of any. I’m not sure I know what you mean by “UAC, console” as Win 7 advantages?. Win 10 maybe dropped support for the POSIX subsystem, so all 100 people using it will be upset.
If you are doing user mode code, Win 7 can’t run libraries for the Windows run-time (sort of a modern version of COM, that’s language neutral, and uses native code instead of dynamic translation like .Net).
Win 8 and later, including Win 10 have built-in support of Hyper-V VMs, so you don’t need some separate product. Win 7 doesn’t have official support for USB 3, so USB 3 devices have drivers that are doing extra fast USB 2. I assume this means USB 3 specific things don’t work on Win 7.
Jan
On 2/6/16, 6:08 PM, “xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of xxxxx@gmail.com” wrote:
>I want to understand if there are advantages to using Windows 10 on driver development machines? Otherwise for my personal preferences, I find many attributes of Windows 10 a step backwards from Windows 7 like UAC, console, and more without any noticeable benefits.
>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list online at: http:
>
>MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
>Details at http:
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>
> Can you clarify what you experience as the advantages of Win 7 over Win 10
There are many. Let’s take one. I open admin console boxes or other admin type apps frequently. For the last 20 years Windows let me do this without bother. In Windows 10 it is annoying to be prompted if I am sure I want to do this and further being forced to reach over to the mouse to comply. If I turn UAC off which I do in Windows 7 to get rid of these prompts, then basic MS apps line up like a union picketing my decision, all refusing to run at all with UAC off.
@Ericsson:
To easily start elevated processes, start an elevated console (Right-click, Run as Administarator). Open other elevated processes from it, they won’t need a prompt.
easily? i am puzzled at that description because going to a command prompt and typing in filenames to start programs is very DOS like. it erases conveniences such as being able to use shortcuts on the task bar to start frequently used programs.
I leave UAC on, and a small number of times per day I have to click the OK button.
If I’m working on Linux, I have to type sudo whatever at least as many times per day.
On my Mac, if I install an update or something, it makes me enter the full username/password for the admin account. Offhand just clicking ok on a UAC dialog seems like the least work of any of the three OSs to shift from a less privileged to a more privileged user context.
I frequently have a couple of powershell console windows open with admin privileges, and can just run things like regedit without having to authorize an admin context, because I’m already in an authorized admin context. I believe this is the case for an admin legacy command console too.
I personally think running email/browsers/word processor in a non-admin context is a good idea. Are you saying you think it’s a good idea to run these kinds of apps in a security context with total control over your system? Do you run browsers and others apps on Linux as root? Part of the problem with Windows security in the past has been developers just ignored it, and run everything as admin, and the system they created reflect this poor security practice.
It sounds like your issue is with Microsoft apps forcing you to not be in an admin context. Have you explored the detailed options that control UAC behavior in group policy? I believe the page at https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd835564(WS.10).aspx might be the place to look.
You know you could just make little wrapper scripts that you can run from an elevated shell that run whatever elevated, with no prompt. It sounds like what you want is some way to mark specific apps as always self elevating, so you can run UAC enable mode and run specific admin apps elevated with no prompt. It does seem like it would make sense to be able put a program’s executable in some specific security group that automatically made it elevated, or attach some specific trusted digital signature to allow this. Off the top of my head I don’t know how to do this, but perhaps someone reading does.
If the issue is you want to run everything on your desktop in a high privilege admin context, I can’t help. Welcome to the modern world of security threats.
So other than you’re experience of UAC issues, which might be solvable with a little configuration work, how is your experience on Win 7 better than Win 10, you said there were many? Post Win 7 OSs have a ton of good stuff, and think you are missing out if you are only going to focus on a few things that are different, and for you annoying.
Jan
On 2/6/16, 8:01 PM, “xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of xxxxx@gmail.com” wrote:
>> Can you clarify what you experience as the advantages of Win 7 over Win 10
>
>There are many. Let’s take one. I open admin console boxes or other admin type apps frequently. For the last 20 years Windows let me do this without bother. In Windows 10 it is annoying to be prompted if I am sure I want to do this and further being forced to reach over to the mouse to comply. If I turn UAC off which I do in Windows 7 to get rid of these prompts, then basic MS apps line up like a union picketing my decision, all refusing to run at all with UAC off.
>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list online at: http:
>
>MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
>Details at http:
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>
Most frequently used programs, like VisualStudio, I start and don’t close all day. So I have to click the UAC once a day for that. I don’t personally find those few clicks very annoying. So can you give examples of frequently used apps you start and stop all day? I do tend to use big screens, and a lot of windows open but collapsed/overlapped. It’s not unusual for me to have dozens of browser tabs, and dozens of VisualStudio source tabs, but these are each one window. I also use a multi-tab remote desktop app, and commonly have remote screens to two or three other machines.
Jan
On 2/6/16, 9:37 PM, “xxxxx@lists.osr.com on behalf of xxxxx@gmail.com” wrote:
>easily? i am puzzled at that description because going to a command prompt and typing in filenames to start programs is very DOS like. it erases conveniences such as being able to use shortcuts on the task bar to start frequently used programs.
>
>
>—
>NTDEV is sponsored by OSR
>
>Visit the list online at: http:
>
>MONTHLY seminars on crash dump analysis, WDF, Windows internals and software drivers!
>Details at http:
>
>To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http:</http:></http:></http:>
> So can you give examples of frequently used apps you start and stop all day?
I start quite a few UAC programs on a daily basis like cmd, regedit, devmgmt, diskmgmt, wbemtest, and many more. I like to close programs when I finish the task I opened them for because leaving programs open are simple reminders to me of tasks that still need to be done. This work style lends itself to reopening programs periodically and getting the dreadful nag.
Are you saying you think it?s a good idea to run these kinds of
apps (email, etc) in a security context with total control over your system?
This is getting off topic, but those things are welcome to run in non-admin context and should configure themselves to do so to meet logo/best practices. However, for *all* programs I have approved to be installed on my machine, I prefer no training wheels attached to the sides. The nag is just a barrier between the user and getting their work done that goes unread; a distraction that wastes time. It is pointless and stupid to be forcibly nagged every single time for every day of one’s life.
so you can run UAC enable mode and run specific admin apps elevated with no prompt
Unclear to me if these are really doable or not. Would welcome hearing about specifics.
Post Win 7 OSs have a ton of good stuff, and think you are missing out
I haven’t run across any, hence the reason I started this thread is to find out.
if you are only going to focus on a few things that are different, and for you annoying.
Don’t get me wrong–different and better is a good thing and change can be good. Different and worse is a bad thing and many things starting falling off a cliff starting with Windows 8. Start menu.
how is your experience on Win 7 better than Win 10, you said there were many?
Yes there sure are. Second issue. I like the 10x18 raster font in the console and dislike the other available fonts for one reason or another. I’ve used 10x18 for decades and feel at home with its size and glyphs. Windows 10 scales this font to a blurry mess based on DPI settings.
On Feb 6, 2016, at 6:08 PM, xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
I want to understand if there are advantages to using Windows 10 on driver development machines? Otherwise for my personal preferences, I find many attributes of Windows 10 a step backwards from Windows 7 like UAC, console, and more without any noticeable benefits.
I don’t understand your objections at all. Both UAC and the console on Windows 10 are virtually unchanged from Windows 7. I spend 99% of my time in a command line shell (gvim is my editor of choice). I moved my main development machine from Win 7 to Win 10 the week it came out, and so far I have no regrets. The Windows-X shortcut menu has quick access to most of what I need, including the admin command shell for those few times I need it.
—
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
For a .lnk, you can set the “always run target as admin” flag.
I have 2 PowerShell shortcuts - one admin another non-admin.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev…
> easily? i am puzzled at that description because going to a command prompt and typing in filenames to start programs is very DOS like. it erases conveniences such as being able to use shortcuts on the task bar to start frequently used programs.
>
>
> For a .lnk, you can set the “always run target as admin” flag
doesn’t remove the nag
> I don?t understand your objections at all
Really, not even the slightest teeniest bit? So some people may be slapped with this nag 100,000 times in their career and have to answer yes 100,000 times (not 99,999) with a mouse move and you don’t understand the objection. Apparently we’ll have to wait for a smarter company like google or someone else to make our computers help us rather than the other way around.
>
> I don?t understand your objections at all
Really, not even the slightest teeniest bit? So some people may be slapped
with this nag 100,000 times in their career and have to answer yes 100,000
times (not 99,999) with a mouse move and you don’t understand the
objection. Apparently we’ll have to wait for a smarter company like google or
someone else to make our computers help us rather than the other way
around.
Sometimes I wonder if MS gets a royalty payment every time someone has to use a touch pad or mouse. That’s the only explanation I have for software that for no obvious reason forces you to take your hand off the keyboard and use the mouse.
With Windows 7 (I think… maybe it was XP), I could bring my computer out of sleep, hit ctrl+alt+delete, type my password, and I’d be logged in. Windows would just buffer keystrokes until it was ready to accept them. With windows 10, I haven’t yet figured out what brings up the password prompt. Most of the time I think it’s probably ctrl+alt+delete, but sometimes that doesn’t work but hitting enter or clicking the mouse does. Either way, I have to wait for the password prompt to appear before I can type my password. It’s more annoying than it sounds.
James
>don’t understand the objection. Apparently we’ll have to wait for a smarter company like google
The “smarter company” (given the pathetic usability and quality of their schoolchildren written Android, they are smarter business-wise and partner-wise only, not product-wise) just DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO RUN anything other then the stuff from their GooglePlay at all.
You need to “root” your phone to run something else.
You want this? thanks MS that they are not Big Brother in such sense.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
>the time I think it’s probably ctrl+alt+delete,
Yes.
wait for the password prompt to appear before I can type my password
On a laptop? sometimes Win10 hangs for a while when you connect the AC power to the laptop.
Disconnect the power - the OS is alive again.
Connect it back - the OS is usually alive and the power is OK too.
–
Maxim S. Shatskih
Microsoft MVP on File System And Storage
xxxxx@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
> I don?t understand your objections at all
Really, not even the slightest teeniest bit? So some people may be slapped with this nag 100,000 times in their career and have to answer yes 100,000 times (not 99,999) with a mouse move and you don’t understand the objection.
Perhaps if you had read the entire exchange you wouldn’t have been so
quick to slap on the sarcasm engine. The original poster did not want
to go from Windows 7 to Windows 10 and cited UAC as a reason. The UAC
experience in both systems is practically identical. If he was going
from XP to Windows 10, then I could see the objection. But in going
from 7 to 10, then neither his objection now your sarcastic swipe are
justified.
–
Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
“Windows fanboy” cannot miss his chance, can he…
Anton Bassov
Nor can you, apparently?
Mr. Eriksson (the author of that line) IS the original poster 
Peter
OSR
@OSRDrivers